Improvisation on Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7

[Lobomov]

True

Do what you have to, but I find your vids quite enjoyable

[christianm77]

Thanks! I do understand that 20m is a lot of time for anyone to invest in anything these days and it's quite surprising to me that some people actually watch them.

To properly script a lesson takes a while. Or you film something 4 times and it goes from being 20m to 10m as you self edit.

But I tend to find things like Rick Beato brilliantly well organised but also bit too much to the point for my taste. Great if you are looking for a specific answer to a specific question.

I do think doing these might be a bit of distraction though. I haven't got that many videos of me just playing for instance.

[ragman1]

Whatever man, take it or leave it. If you have better things to do, then why engage to begin with? It's like you are looking for attention.

Thanks. I was a bit punchy but I appreciate the reply.

I think the point's being missed, though. This thread is Stochelo's. All he wanted to know was what to do over that Dbo, mostly in bossa tunes according to #1.

If he's asking that it's unlikely he's going to understand these extremely complex theoretical replies. Therefore we aren't addressing the question or the needs of the enquirer. All it'll do, as far as I can see, is completely confuse him and not be any help at all.

I don't mean, obviously, that I have better things to do than be here. But I don't need to watch a long video that doesn't specifically address the issue at hand. The one you posted here is actually 12 mins long but is about minor ii-v's in the bebop style. I don't see that was his question.

In passing, your first suggestion was that the Dbo should be considered a C7. To me, that's not even logical. Dm/A7 - Cm/F7 is logical. Dm/C7 - Cm/F7 is not. And if the C becomes a C# it's no longer C7.

It takes a lot of effort to come up with something short and to the point.

I disagree. If there's an answer to the query then simply provide it, or some alternatives. I don't see the issue here at all.

Why not just say 'Here's an idea over your Dbo' + plus audio example, and 'Here's another couple' + audio example? And, if you want to, add the theory explanations for it. It won't take long and you've helped somebody.

The question becomes do I want to do the youtube thing seriously?

Well, that's up to you. You have a ton of knowledge, which is impressive and therefore worth sharing, but it must be directed at an audience capable of understanding it, surely? I'm not sure that applies to this particular query at all.

[mr. beaumont]

Hey, to sort of right the ship a bit, a little different idea. (nothing wrong with scales and all, but this chord, at least in the OP's sample tune, sure ain't hanging around long)

This is the perfect time to develop a rhythmic motif and adjust the melodic content to suit the downward motion in the chords.

Gives you a lot to play with...you got two notes moving in half steps, and then two that do a whole step jump, then hang around.

Always ask, WWJHD? (What would Jim Hall do?)

If I can grab a guitar here later, I'll play some pet licks that can be tweaked and made into other stuff.

[supermaxx]

This thread is actually pretty hilarious. The answer to the original question is so simple: it's an A7b9, the V7 of Dm.

Now if the OP is asking that question he probably can learn a ton from just playing an A7b9 arpeggio in different positions or working on the D harmonic minor scale.

Everything else is so needlessly complex and unnecessary that is obscures the simplicity of this answer and really the simply nature of basic harmony in general.

[ragman1]

That spot is a complete A7b9 with the melody note. Playing G H/W may raise some eyebrows...A H/W fits perfectly though

Well, the notes I played were

(F) G Ab Bb B C# D E F G Ab etc

Which is a G H/W or an F W/H, whichever. But there's no question it fits over Dbo. Like a glove

But did anyone like the BigDaddyLoveHandles one?

Apart from him , that is :-)

[mr. beaumont]

Now if the OP is asking that question he probably can learn a ton from just playing an A7b9 arpeggio in different positions or working on the D harmonic minor scale.
.

On the tunes where the diminished hangs around longer, that simple answer just plain works.

[christianm77]

Hey, to sort of right the ship a bit, a little different idea. (nothing wrong with scales and all, but this chord, at least in the OP's sample tune, sure ain't hanging around long)

I think the OP may have long run for the hills.

I hope not, because as much as I hate to admit ragman does have a point in that it's probably best to post an example of playing. I want to blat something down when I get back.

This is the perfect time to develop a rhythmic motif and adjust the melodic content to suit the downward motion in the chords.

Gives you a lot to play with...you got two notes moving in half steps, and then two that do a whole step jump, then hang around.

Always ask, WWJHD? (What would Jim Hall do?)

If I can grab a guitar here later, I'll play some pet licks that can be tweaked and made into other stuff.

Well that was why I posted a Jim Hall transcription. :-)

[Runepune]

Well, the notes I played were

(F) G Ab Bb B C# D E F G Ab etc

Which is a G H/W or an F W/H, whichever. But there's no question it fits over Dbo. Like a glove

We just prefer different gloves then! I find the maj7 and 9 on the 7b9 tonality to be..."unusual" Moving that scale a half step down is safety glove territory at least!

[Doublea A]

Question 1 - how long does that Dbdim7 stick around for?

Then decide whether or not to ignore it.

If you decide to engage with it, the best thing I've found is to treat it as a C7 chord and if you want, then raise the C to a C#. So play C mixolydian and raise the C to a C#.

I find it easier to get a melodic flow through the changes this way.

So

Dm7 C7 (C#) Cm7 F7

By the way this funny scale also expresses the A7b9 sound. Neat huh? So by changing c to c# you can move between C7 and A7b9.

Also the whole half scale works particularly well on this chord, more do than on a leading tone dominant.

I agree with Christian on this; are you on the diminished chord for one beat ? two beats ? a bar ? Each of these questions will elicit a different response. There is a method that I first heard described by Pat Metheny whereby he figures out several (about a dozen) "lines" or "licks" to play over tricky passages. You must learn passages in different parts of the neck, different starting notes, different resolution points etc. You must learn these lines thoroughly. Then, at the point of performance you simply "insert" the desired lick.

I hope that helps

[christianm77]

Thanks. I was a bit punchy but I appreciate the reply.

I think the point's being missed, though. This thread is Stochelo's. All he wanted to know was what to do over that Dbo, mostly in bossa tunes according to #1.

If he's asking that it's unlikely he's going to understand these extremely complex theoretical replies. Therefore we aren't addressing the question or the needs of the enquirer. All it'll do, as far as I can see, is completely confuse him and not be any help at all.

I don't mean, obviously, that I have better things to do than be here. But I don't need to watch a long video that doesn't specifically address the issue at hand. The one you posted here is actually 12 mins long but is about minor ii-v's in the bebop style. I don't see that was his question.

In passing, your first suggestion was that the Dbo should be considered a C7. To me, that's not even logical. Dm/A7 - Cm/F7 is logical. Dm/C7 - Cm/F7 is not. And if the C becomes a C# it's no longer C7.



I disagree. If there's an answer to the query then simply provide it, or some alternatives. I don't see the issue here at all.

Why not just say 'Here's an idea over your Dbo' + plus audio example, and 'Here's another couple' + audio example? And, if you want to, add the theory explanations for it. It won't take long and you've helped somebody.



Well, that's up to you. You have a ton of knowledge, which is impressive and therefore worth sharing, but it must be directed at an audience capable of understanding it, surely? I'm not sure that applies to this particular query at all.

I just wanted to pick up this point.

First the video I posted I made last august, so it was something I had lying around anyway. And not in specific reference to this topic. But I do mention dim7 chords - they are very closely related to minor ii-vs. Check out the original and real book changes to Stella.

So I managed to spend an hour trying to make a video just off the cuff on this subject this afternoon.

I start off and realise I have three or four strategies of playing through the progression.

I also find myself modifying some of those strategies to come up with new stuff.

Arpeggio ideas with line cliches?
Damn bIV7 on biiio7 sounds awesome. Could use the #11 even.

Halfway through I realise I prefer the sound of IV7 on the bIIIo7 to II7

I also realise that you can come up with some great lines based around Charlie christian m6 licks adding in the #1/b2 note at the end.

Oh but that reminds me IV #ivo7? Use the same motion but resolve to I and that's a whole other set of progressions we can play on.

Before I know it I've been working on ideas for 30m-45m with the camera rolling and it runs out of SD card. This happens to me every time. I think I'm a divergent thinker. Just look at what happens to the threads I'm involved with.

I find the possiblities endless when practicing. To make a lesson video, I know what I need to do, strong structure,take a specific nugget of info and put it into a short video. That takes forethought and planning. The more the better.

That was one thing that was always rammed home when I did my teaching diploma.

So in short I had a productive afternoon, but no video to show you that's shorter than gone with the wind.

[mr. beaumont]

Well that was why I posted a Jim Hall transcription. :-)

No kidding, I'll have to go back and look for that. Must be buried under fifty posts about mixolydian #1 or whatever

[pingu]

This thread is actually pretty hilarious. The answer to the original question is so simple: it's an A7b9, the V7 of Dm.

Now if the OP is asking that question he probably can learn a ton from just playing an A7b9 arpeggio in different positions or working on the D harmonic minor scale.

Everything else is so needlessly complex and unnecessary that is obscures the simplicity of this answer and really the simply nature of basic harmony in general.

Yes and no ...
There's the short answer as you said A7b9

Then there's longer answers , wider ramifications
Etc ... As per Christians posts , which I did follow
through , and the minor 25 stuff , how he thinks
etc .... That's good stuff man

I mean I would still love peoples thoughts on
how the Dbdim (A7b9) leads to the Cmin so well !

You might think it would only want to go up
to Dmin ....

Should that question be in another thread ??

[ColinO]

Yes and no ...
There's the short answer as you said A7b9

Then there's longer answers , wider ramifications
Etc ... As per Christians posts , which I did follow
through , and the minor 25 stuff , how he thinks
etc .... That's good stuff man

I mean I would still love peoples thoughts on
how the Dbdim (A7b9) leads to the Cmin so well !

You might think it would only want to go up
to Dmin ....

Should that question be in another thread ??

G Bb Db E (A7b9/C7b9) -> C Eb G Bb (Cm7). Two notes the same, and two moving by semitones. Why would it not lead there?
And C7b9 is the V of Fmaj (the relative major of Dm) so I'm not sure I see why A7b9 is the only logical name for that chord.

[ragman1]

We just prefer different gloves then! I find the maj7 and 9 on the 7b9 tonality to be..."unusual" Moving that scale a half step down is safety glove territory at least!

A half-step down? To Gb/F#? No-o-o-o!

Are we talking about the same thing?

Dbo: Db G Bb E

G H/W: G Ab Bb B Db D E F G

You can't move that down!

[ragman1]

are you on the diminished chord for one beat ? two beats ? a bar ?

One of the sample tunes given by the OP was Insensatez, which is 2 bars and not very quickly. You can't really skip over it.

[ragman1]

I mean I would still love peoples thoughts on
how the Dbdim (A7b9) leads to the Cmin so well !

It's either a sub for A7b9 or just a passing chord to the 2-5-1 in Bb. Passing chords are often, if not usually dims. In any case what you play still has to fit.

[christianm77]

No kidding, I'll have to go back and look for that. Must be buried under fifty posts about mixolydian #1 or whatever

It is on minor ii-V's in Stella though.

If anyone doesn't know

C#m7b5 F#7b9 is subbed for the original Bbo7 in the original changes (Jim plays it in G).

The approach Jim uses works equally well over either.

[christianm77]

I mean I would still love peoples thoughts on
how the Dbdim (A7b9) leads to the Cmin so well !

Just chromatic voice leading innit. Check out the chromatic minor thirds, and the chromatic minor sixth, against the pedal G:

D F A C
Db E G Bb
C Db G A

WE can extend it to get Em7b5 Ebm6 Dm7 Dbo7 Cm7 (the Cole Porter turnaround as I call it)

E G Bb D
Eb Gb Bb C
D F A C
Db E G Bb
C Db G A

Diatonic stepwise movement top two voice, against chromatic movement in the bottom two notes.

[Runepune]

A half-step down? To Gb/F#? No-o-o-o!

Are we talking about the same thing?

Dbo: Db G Bb E

G H/W: G Ab Bb B Db D E F G

You can't move that down!

Of course you can. That's the regular use of the WHWHWHW...thing over dim7's.

Shifting the pattern a half step down becomes:

G A Bb C Db Eb E Gb

Or W/H from G if you want. I'd probably note A H/W myself. Doesn't matter much what you define as starting note on this symmetrical thing though. You've only got three of them

EDIT: As mentioned, I don't distinguish between H/W and W/H. Myself, I only think H/W...four positions per octave on the neck covering four first positions of 13b9#9#11's. Love that about dim7's and the whwhwhwhw thing...choosing/shifting between these four (dominant) major tonalities

[pingu]

A half-step down? To Gb/F#? No-o-o-o!

Are we talking about the same thing?

Dbo: Db G Bb E

G H/W: G Ab Bb B Db D E F G

You can't move that down!

Now I'm confused
Ik
Dbdim = A7b9
(and the min 3rd sub's C7b9 Eb7b9 & Gb7b9)
Yeah ...... ?

Dbdim don't sub for G7b9 !

[jordanklemons]

Dbdim don't sub for G7b9 !

I think that part of the problem is that we tend to learn about diminished chords as a throw away extension of diatonic harmony. Hey look, when you build a triad on the 7th degree, you get a diminished triad. That's weird and doesn't really fit right. Ah well, let's go back and really study the basic maj, minor, and dominant7 stuff... that's more important anyways.

No, you're absolutely correct, Dbº7 and the notes it contains do not yield some type of inversion of G7b9.

That said, any diminished 7 chord can resolves to any other stable chord next to... they're like little tension balls... momentum builders that slide everything forward. Why? Ultimately why? Who knows? The way our brains are wired maybe? God decided it to be that way maybe? Somebody made up a rule hundreds of years ago and we've all been blindly following it every since, maybe? Probably not. It just is. Theory is great for learning about why what sounds good works and internalizing those rules and utilizing them playfully.

If you look at a fully diminished 7 chord, it's 4 notes are evenly spaced throughout the octave. Each note can move up or down a very small distance and find itself at a chord tone for any other chord. Try it out... write down all the diminished 7 chords on sheets of paper, and write down all the maj and min chords on other sheets of paper, pick them out of a hat, and try writing out the 4-part voice leading for the harmony. It kind of just always works.

So no, Dbº7 doesn't qualify as any type of inversion for the G7b9. But they both resolve to C-7. So... for whatever any of that is worth...

[ragman1]

Dbdim don't sub for G7b9 !

I didn't say that. I said it subs for A7b9.

[pingu]

I misunderstood then
Good ... Sorry about that

[supermaxx]

Yes and no ...
There's the short answer as you said A7b9

Then there's longer answers , wider ramifications
Etc ... As per Christians posts , which I did follow
through , and the minor 25 stuff , how he thinks
etc .... That's good stuff man

I mean I would still love peoples thoughts on
how the Dbdim (A7b9) leads to the Cmin so well !

You might think it would only want to go up
to Dmin ....

Should that question be in another thread ??

The easy answer of how Dbdim leads to Cm is that it doesn't from a purely functional perspective. It leads to F7 (because it is also a C7b9) or in other words it's the V7b9/V. The Cm is added so you get the full ii V effect.

For me and I'd imagine for the OP this is too complicated to think about because it is one step removed from the actually chords of the song.


As far as the length of time of the Dbdim, that's irrelevant. Whether it's 4 beats or 1 beat you still have to know what notes sound good over it and what the basic harmony is telling you to do. The only way to learn that is to know where all the notes of that A7b9 chord are (or other approach - D harm min/A diminished scale) which requires practicing them at slow speeds and learning their location on the fretboard.